The Man Who Was Scared to Death: Living with the Fear of Non-Existence

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Welcome to Why Is It So? Your last defence for common sense,

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with your co-hosts Paul Zammett and Vince Locizzano.

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Welcome to Why Is It So? My name is Paul, and I'll be your host for this episode,

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which should be very interesting.

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When I first met today's guest, I thought he was exaggerating.

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Our guest's name is Philip Oven. He lives in London and he is a fellow podcaster.

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The name of his podcast is The Man Who Was Scared to Death.

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And he has a large tattoo of that name on his left arm.

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I can tell you a bit more about him, but I think Phil can tell us his story

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much better than I can. So let's cross over to Phil.

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Well, good morning, Phil.

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Thanks for being with us and giving us your time. Perhaps you'd like to just

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start off and tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Okay, well, my name is Philip Ophan. I live over here in London in a place called

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Finchley, which is nice.

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You probably know local areas, well, Hampstead Heath near us. It's a very leafy area.

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I've just turned 50, and ever since I was around the age of 12 to 13,

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I've pretty much thought about death and existence every single day.

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It's just something that came to me.

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I mean, every young adult, I'm sure, has these thoughts of what happens after life.

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If you're not particularly religious and for some reason mine just seemed to

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paralyze me that the fear of and it's not so much of death Paul I think I've

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said this to a lot of people I've spoken to

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you know I'm not scared of dying it's about not living afterwards so it being

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the ultimate end you know and since you don't you know there is no religious

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connotation to think there's a,

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heaven or hell to go to or some are you know post-life shanigans it seemed to

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me a really terrifying thought, but you could just click out of existence and

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everything else would just carry on without you.

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So that thought has dominated my mind.

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I don't want anyone listening to get the wrong idea. I'm a very happy person, very fulfilled in life.

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My son is actually in the other room now. He's now 23.

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So I've lived a full life. I enjoy the work and the other things I get up to.

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It's just, I can't seem to shake myself.

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That thought is pretty much when I wake up, I have the first five seconds of

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blissful ignorance. And then you remember, oh no, I'm going to die at some point.

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So essentially it's been that way for 38 years.

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But what I've tried to do is turn it into more of a positive and work with it

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and wonder why really in the main, more people don't feel this way.

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That's always surprised me that there aren't people running around outside my flat going,

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my God, I'm going to die at some point it just seems such a big topic

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and it's something we really talk about so that's

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really did you did you so

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um you had a normal normal yeah

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what is normal but yeah a normal

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sort of kids life until you

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got to around 12 14 how did that suddenly hit

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you what happened did you wake up one morning and just say oh hang

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on i'm gonna die someday and i'm starting to think about it now it's

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not it's not so far away but i i did suffer from insomnia from

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around about the age of 11 to about 14 which might you know probably i'm sure

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was was set this up essentially because i couldn't sleep i would end up reading

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books all night i remember listening to a transistor radio i was obviously born

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my obsession with with audio and radio i'd have it on talk radio all night under my pillow.

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And I think I got so tired, it would be about four or five.

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My dad was a black cab driver, so he'd get up quite early.

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And I remember him getting up at five in the morning was usually my cue to hopefully fall asleep.

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And by then, I think I was having nightmares because I was just so exhausted.

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And it was at those points, I think, these thoughts started occurring.

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Because if you're in that state of tiredness and exhaustion and you fixate on a topic,

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in this case it was well what would happen if I suddenly died tonight you know

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your parents would carry on everyone would carry on and you'd just be spinning

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around in non-existence forever and ever and ever and I tried to get that concept

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into my head the the forever and ever and ever and ever,

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and it just seemed so untangible you know to to to contemplate what it would

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feel like to not exist combined with the realisation that, of course, it's going to happen.

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I mean, that's what happens, right? You know, I certainly would not deny that

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I've lived a lot of my life in denial.

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And even now, if I'm being honest with you, Paul, there's an element of me,

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obviously not a large one because I've known people that I've loved that have

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passed away, but there's still an element of me that thinks maybe it won't happen to me.

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Right, right. So what happened...

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You'd suddenly come up with this idea that you're going to die and you're trying to figure it out.

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There must have been something that actually turned it on.

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Someone's walked past a switch and switched it, and that sort of changed you over.

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It just sort of happened that you started thinking, oh, I've got to die someday.

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I don't know how or when, and then start getting uptight about it.

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I genuinely think I would put it down to the insomnia in that I do believe,

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you know when your body is weak and your mind's weak

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because you're just not fueling it with what it needs these

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thoughts can come in and override i remember the first

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night i really had this i remember going to school the next day

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i was obviously very tired and blanked out i remember

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sitting in the gym room and i was sitting there looking at

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everyone you know age 13 or whatever it was and thinking my

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god i'm not part of this world in

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in a way you know my in my mind that was it i'd already thought about

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what was going to happen therefore it was it was over you know

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and then you know not even sensible folks

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like oh right that guy over there he's going to die at some point or that guy

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over there he's going to die at some point more just i'd already

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passed through that thought process and

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it struck me as amazing no one else seemingly was

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talking about it they were just talking about normal 13 year

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old boy things you know that i think that for me was

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really eye-opening and obviously as

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we get into I've tried to make it more of my you know

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life's work as it were to to talk about these things

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with people make it a subject that's that's broachable maybe next time you know

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isn't so scary I mean I you know as I mentioned my son you know obviously we've

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had frank discussions about it you know about existence I just think that's

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probably very healthy in a way and maybe to answer you know to go back to your question Paul.

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Yes, my life was very normal. It was very...

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Suburban London you know it was very

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maybe my parents weren't the most open you

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know talking just about in just in general it was very much sit

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in front of the tv of an evening you know eat dinner sit in

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front of the tv you go off to your room to play some computer games you know

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there wasn't really or it seemed to me anyway there was that much interaction

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talking about the bigger topics in life you know be it obviously biggest one

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of all but just generally you know you know philosophizing about why we're here

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and all that kind of business so maybe that was a there was a lack of that,

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you know, my mind was craving it and this fault,

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this amazing fault that at some point I'm not going to exist and everyone else

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will just took over and then ever since then, it's pretty much,

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I'd say, yeah, I think it would be classed as an obsession. Has it?

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How does your son feel at the moment has he taken off

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the same as yourself and said oh my father's

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got this idea so i must have this idea the

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same thing's going to happen to me is it you know it's it's

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so weird we have very uh you know discussion i mean it probably sounds to anyone

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listening that this is a 24 7 it's not you know it i know in my look in my head

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my most susceptible times are early in the morning and mostly obviously late

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tonight as i'm sure a lot of people will you know when you can't get to sleep

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and the thoughts start circling you that happens or.

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Occasionally in the day i just feel a bit of sickness at

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the pit of my stomach and it's like oh god jesus you

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know but at the same time you know i've rationalized it

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you know i think i'm quite a rational person and my son jake is

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is far more rational than i is and you know we've had

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conversations like where he says look my my limit is if i

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can't move or i have no mobility just put

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me out my misery i don't want to exist no yeah i

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understand but there's a bit of me that thinks you know what

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even if i can't move i want to cling on because you know

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it's the way it is but yeah to your

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question no i wouldn't say it's affected him in the slightest

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i mean i don't even know i must ask him when he gets up

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as you can see he's 23 it's already 10 o'clock here he's

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not even up but um listen to any of

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the recordings i've done i'm not sure if he has so

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it's really interesting okay how

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is this affected what sort of work do you do what do you what do

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you do for a living so to get paid i

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work in editorial so essentially through my life i've either worked in radio

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uh sort of presenting sports or i've now gone into digital editing so essentially

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commissioning writers to write about certain subjects and i edit their things

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and publish it online and publish it in magazines and all that.

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So a media world, which is quite good actually because a lot of people in media,

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as you can imagine, are...

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Not the they don't come across as the deepest fingers you know it's not top

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you know you're just it's more on a day-to-day oh this is happening now this

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is happening in the world it's very relevant and keeps you you know on point

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that you know you're very much thinking of the day-to-day.

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Runnings of the world rather than an existential uh so yeah so that's that's

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what i do for i mean i've done various jobs across the years i've actually you

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know i've worked i don't know if you have big brother over there poor tv but

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yeah i worked on the first few of those series i worked It's a bit of TV,

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a bit of radio, and now it's mainly online journalism.

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So it doesn't affect you in your working life. It's obviously something that

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when you've got a few minutes after work, you might be sitting down having a

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cigarette or a drink or something to eat or whatever,

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and you suddenly come up with this, oh, hang on a minute.

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Yeah, I'm going to die sometime, but I'm going to hang on with the skin of my teeth.

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That's really interesting you say that because it's not – And as I did,

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yeah, to stress, it's not really the fear of death in terms of.

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The act of dying you know i'm well aware living in london i can go out to the high streets,

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for like a you know a walk at lunch and something you

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know a car or whatever you know i'm well aware of that i don't sort of hide

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away from dangers i don't know if you or anyone else is familiar with the final

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desolation series of films but it's the idea that you cheat death and then one

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by one death comes looking for you you know there's no escape from it essentially

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which i tend to believe you You know,

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it's more, is there something else at work here?

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I can accept that this body is just carrying my brain and a lot of very important

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organs around. I've got that part.

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And I know in visited like zoological society, seeing like the bones of humans

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and animals, that that's what's at the bottom of all of us.

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You know, I've got, I'm not in denial about it.

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But, you know, maybe it's more like, you know, is there a soul in a non-religious way?

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You know, is there something else intangible that

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might carry on after that so i

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suppose that's that would be my dream scenario right if

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there is some pay you know front page news tomorrow saying

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you know the soul is discovered or proven it lives

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on then i don't have to worry about anything because i said it's not the

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this physical body i'm worried about i know it's going to stop functioning at

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some point yeah but i wonder if there's something about it well also obviously

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i mean you don't really want to think about that but yeah no it's more about

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is there going to be some form of yourself Is there going to be a Paul Zammett that carries on.

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Yeah. When you're dead. You know, that's what I think the obsession is more

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about. It's the existence part of it.

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What made you sort of start a podcast in the name of the man who was scared to death?

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Yes. Where did that come from? Did that suddenly come to your head and say,

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oh, I want to do a podcast and this is what I'm going to call it?

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Well, exactly. yeah well i think i i shared with you

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there was a one of my previous work works uh life was at the huffington post

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which is like a uk i think it might be international but anyway in the uk it's

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just like a news portal and they were looking for blogs you know about personal

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experience so we have a paper here called the guardian where every saturday

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there'll be like you know an unusual,

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experience someone who would like would have i don't know you know all their

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hair fallen out one day and then it'd grown back in a month and they'd tell

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about their own experience so it's very much like that so i thought well you

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know i don't think many people you know think about

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this subject all the time and are quite articulate but so i

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wrote a blog for them and then on the back of that because i was working there

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that's where the the the podcast came from we were thinking i was working with

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someone we were thinking about ways to approach it rather than just talking

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about death which isn't isn't common in the podcast land but it does happen

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there's a A few over here, we've got something called Griefcast,

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which is like, you know, see people talking about their loved ones that have gone.

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There's a few sort of comedy versions where, you know, people lie in a coffin

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and talk about life, you know, all that kind of business.

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But I've never really heard of anything where you find people who work in industries and jobs.

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That involved death in some way you know more

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likely than so you asked what i did for a living obviously in

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the media we don't apart from the odd

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obituary or going oh my god that woman who was in the 80s

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sitcom has died you don't you know death isn't really a

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subject that you're discussing likewise you know existence so

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i thought it'd be really interesting to speak to people who work in jobs where

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death is routine you know where you're dealing with people who have you know

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lost someone in the case of say a funeral director or if you're talking about

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people who literally deal with dead bodies you know i i talked to you someone

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who you know cuts up bodies.

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You know for for you know to to see

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what you know the cause of death i've talked to people in palliative

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care you know obviously dealing with the end of end of people's

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lives and those around them you know i've even talked

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to a horror film director because i thought that would be quite interesting someone

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who you know like sees death is quite throwaway you

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know as a plot point and whether or not you know

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is this so it's mainly in two two ways it's mainly either

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to to see if they look at their own

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life and existence differently because they're so

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used to it you know or whether it's changed did they did they sort of when you

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were talking to them about you know your thoughts and what they thought about

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the whole thing did they think along the same lines as you or did they use it

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as a thinking or talking about,

00:15:21.736 --> 00:15:24.116
well, I've got this job, but it's not me.

00:15:24.116 --> 00:15:27.036
I'm not going to die or I don't even think if I'm going to die.

00:15:28.256 --> 00:15:33.216
Someone comes in, I cut them out and do the autopsy and then sell them up and

00:15:33.216 --> 00:15:34.956
send them off and onto the next one.

00:15:35.239 --> 00:15:41.139
So they're not actually thinking about their death, but you have more feelings

00:15:41.139 --> 00:15:42.939
in that area than they do.

00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:46.819
Absolutely. And that's the most ridiculous thing. You're sitting out and about

00:15:46.819 --> 00:15:50.579
with someone who is literally dealing with death on a daily basis,

00:15:50.579 --> 00:15:52.679
and they're not worried in the slightest.

00:15:52.979 --> 00:15:56.819
It's like you go to work and you don't even think about what you're doing.

00:15:56.959 --> 00:15:58.159
It's just normal. It comes normal.

00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:02.939
Exactly. I would say the one thing I found or one of the main strains,

00:16:03.119 --> 00:16:06.439
I also spoke to a reverend as well, you know so people who would

00:16:06.439 --> 00:16:09.079
have people coming to them you know what happens after that you know

00:16:09.079 --> 00:16:11.959
that kind of thing well i think the one thing i did find and it's

00:16:11.959 --> 00:16:14.599
very difficult i'm going to continue doing it to see if there

00:16:14.599 --> 00:16:17.459
is a way of discovering the cause and effect

00:16:17.459 --> 00:16:20.559
but as you say the majority of people were very sanguine very

00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.199
calm about it was very much what will

00:16:23.199 --> 00:16:26.239
be will be you know and they were different ages you know some were quite young the

00:16:26.239 --> 00:16:28.999
person who cut bodies up was i think she was only 25 you know

00:16:28.999 --> 00:16:31.699
so she had a long way ahead of her and then i talked to a

00:16:31.699 --> 00:16:34.539
guy who um who does cemetery tours we've got a quite

00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.479
famous cemetery a highgate cemetery not far from here karl

00:16:37.479 --> 00:16:40.159
marx is buried there george michael the singer he was

00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.219
local here and he gives tours so he talks about

00:16:43.219 --> 00:16:47.039
all the people in all the graves every day and all these you know old crypts

00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:51.239
that you go into and open and crematoriums that families have had for centuries

00:16:51.239 --> 00:16:56.939
you know and he was i think he said he was 79 or maybe pushing 80 and yeah again

00:16:56.939 --> 00:17:00.719
you know he said well the only thing he really thinks about is what he's going

00:17:00.719 --> 00:17:02.399
to leave his son or his daughter,

00:17:02.599 --> 00:17:05.779
you know, the practical elements, which of course I'm totally in tune with.

00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:09.539
I'm forcing myself to write a will this year, for example, because again,

00:17:09.699 --> 00:17:12.859
something I couldn't really face because I couldn't face the concepts of not

00:17:12.859 --> 00:17:14.759
existing, but I'm going to do it.

00:17:14.979 --> 00:17:20.419
But the cause and effect that I discuss, I wonder whether working in and around death makes you.

00:17:20.863 --> 00:17:24.083
Accept it more so the idea then is well

00:17:24.083 --> 00:17:26.803
why don't we all talk about it more if it's going

00:17:26.803 --> 00:17:29.463
to be ultimately a helpful thing and if we

00:17:29.463 --> 00:17:32.283
accept there are some people i might be extreme but.

00:17:32.283 --> 00:17:35.203
I'm sure a lot of people are quite worried you know so

00:17:35.203 --> 00:17:38.003
much about what they leave behind you know but they're just like.

00:17:38.003 --> 00:17:41.783
God i don't want to die you know why would you know so i.

00:17:41.783 --> 00:17:44.963
Think that's maybe what i found more was the

00:17:44.963 --> 00:17:48.283
comfort of talking to people who

00:17:48.283 --> 00:17:51.123
know what they're talking about because they deal with either people who

00:17:51.123 --> 00:17:54.703
have lost people or the actual physical dead bodies themselves and

00:17:54.703 --> 00:17:57.963
it's not eating them up you know it's not affecting their

00:17:57.963 --> 00:18:01.323
moods on a daily basis etc etc so you know i

00:18:01.323 --> 00:18:03.983
i have definitely undoubtedly i think i mentioned to you but

00:18:03.983 --> 00:18:06.943
you know i've i saw there are unbelievably i

00:18:06.943 --> 00:18:09.763
don't know if there would be in australia but we obviously have a range of

00:18:09.763 --> 00:18:13.543
counselors and therapists here have you had help there

00:18:13.543 --> 00:18:16.543
in this area so existential therapy is

00:18:16.543 --> 00:18:19.463
a is a part of the you know

00:18:19.463 --> 00:18:22.943
counseling pyramid you know so obviously you have like cbt you

00:18:22.943 --> 00:18:26.083
know to do with behavioral things but existential therapists

00:18:26.083 --> 00:18:28.763
exist to talk about existence and why you know

00:18:28.763 --> 00:18:31.663
the human condition so i did see someone for 10 weeks

00:18:31.663 --> 00:18:36.003
in fact here in london and it was really obviously

00:18:36.003 --> 00:18:38.923
fascinating you know that this kind of concept you're

00:18:38.923 --> 00:18:41.843
coming you know well you know but what is a lot you know so what

00:18:41.843 --> 00:18:44.723
would happen if you know what's the worst that can happen and

00:18:44.723 --> 00:18:47.383
obviously when you're going in there and say well the worst can happen is

00:18:47.383 --> 00:18:50.103
i die and i'm not i don't ever exist again it's not

00:18:50.103 --> 00:18:54.063
much answer to that it's like yeah yeah that's sort of the deal you know but

00:18:54.063 --> 00:18:58.143
she did and she was great at this but she did do one thing that has always stuck

00:18:58.143 --> 00:19:02.183
with me and before i tell you i should also say you know i've definitely developed

00:19:02.183 --> 00:19:07.703
my own coping techniques with this as i said it sounds like i'm totally well

00:19:07.703 --> 00:19:09.383
probably insane but also just.

00:19:10.303 --> 00:19:13.123
You know just as the obsession part of it but you know

00:19:13.123 --> 00:19:15.943
my life hasn't changed i mean i can only be who i am

00:19:15.943 --> 00:19:19.243
you know but it doesn't feel like i'm stopping myself doing anything maybe i

00:19:19.243 --> 00:19:23.263
am you know maybe that fear is stopping me but i kind of think it's given me

00:19:23.263 --> 00:19:26.783
more release of life because well i might as well just do it you know i'm not

00:19:26.783 --> 00:19:32.183
really nervous for anything because compared to to dying and not existing going

00:19:32.183 --> 00:19:36.543
for an audition in a play doesn't there's nothing is it yeah it's So it's actually,

00:19:36.663 --> 00:19:38.743
ironically, probably a more positive spin.

00:19:39.063 --> 00:19:46.363
Have you thought about working in a funeral parlor or people who are working with death all the time?

00:19:46.683 --> 00:19:50.623
Would that make it more common, if you like?

00:19:51.583 --> 00:19:55.323
Now I'm amongst it. I'm not the only one, so everything's okay.

00:19:55.483 --> 00:19:56.843
So we go back to square one.

00:19:57.283 --> 00:20:00.783
I think that would be a great idea. Unfortunately, I think for a lot of the

00:20:00.783 --> 00:20:04.423
careers that you need, it would require probably quite a lot of specialist education.

00:20:04.423 --> 00:20:07.303
You know certainly things like palliative care obviously you're a doctor so you

00:20:07.303 --> 00:20:10.003
need your doctor you know i'm a funeral party yeah yeah

00:20:10.003 --> 00:20:12.763
absolutely i could start my own really i mean maybe i can do

00:20:12.763 --> 00:20:15.623
it locally here but i think you're right but at the

00:20:15.623 --> 00:20:19.423
same time you know it seems like it's just because it's just a fault that's

00:20:19.423 --> 00:20:24.623
it's all the time i'm not sure much closure that i'd get and i almost hope now

00:20:24.623 --> 00:20:28.503
paul it's been 50 years that it never i don't ever have any closure because

00:20:28.503 --> 00:20:31.723
what's the point you know you get to a certain part in your life and you've

00:20:31.723 --> 00:20:33.423
lived for so long it is you,

00:20:33.943 --> 00:20:37.663
and do you really want to change a fundamental core of yourself just because

00:20:37.663 --> 00:20:41.143
it's something it might be something different I don't think it's you know held

00:20:41.143 --> 00:20:45.283
me back sorry yeah and going back to the existential therapist just remembered her

00:20:45.523 --> 00:20:49.243
advice so she said what would be your ultimate goal.

00:20:49.976 --> 00:20:53.876
You know, if you could choose anything right now, you know, what to sort this

00:20:53.876 --> 00:20:56.936
out, what would you do? I suppose, well, I suppose I would want to live forever.

00:20:57.296 --> 00:21:00.056
Yeah, I mean, that would sort it out, wouldn't it? If you live forever,

00:21:00.256 --> 00:21:04.076
there's no point in being here because you're living forever, right? Yeah.

00:21:04.296 --> 00:21:06.756
She said, okay, that's fine. Yeah, you've got that.

00:21:07.436 --> 00:21:11.036
What about anyone else in your life? And so, but this was many years ago.

00:21:11.076 --> 00:21:13.296
So I think my son was around about 10 at the time. I said, well,

00:21:13.396 --> 00:21:15.316
obviously I want my son to live forever as well.

00:21:15.696 --> 00:21:18.576
And she said, okay, so anyone else? and she

00:21:18.576 --> 00:21:22.036
started made me realize the futility of picking and choosing yeah

00:21:22.036 --> 00:21:25.536
i want to live forever with in this imaginary world

00:21:25.536 --> 00:21:28.356
yeah well what else perishes it's like yeah yeah

00:21:28.356 --> 00:21:31.396
that doesn't matter doesn't matter about paul's amit you know you can go i don't

00:21:31.396 --> 00:21:35.316
know it's crazy and he suddenly suddenly realized god i'm you know you're the

00:21:35.316 --> 00:21:40.656
picture me as some kind of like superhero god figure who's choosing you know

00:21:40.656 --> 00:21:45.696
and it and it did make me look at the you know my own selfish desire there to

00:21:45.696 --> 00:21:47.776
what I see to exist forever,

00:21:48.236 --> 00:21:53.476
clearly isn't compatible with having a son or having other loved ones around.

00:21:55.096 --> 00:21:57.636
And it did make me, and I suddenly, I did,

00:21:58.232 --> 00:22:01.592
that that's my main takeaway from that that that whole

00:22:01.592 --> 00:22:04.372
10 session was that ultimately it's quite a

00:22:04.372 --> 00:22:07.852
selfish thing isn't it you know but you still

00:22:07.852 --> 00:22:10.972
couldn't get over it though well you still can get over it but also what can

00:22:10.972 --> 00:22:14.332
i do i'm not actually powerful enough to live forever so it doesn't really matter

00:22:14.332 --> 00:22:18.272
because he's a quite abstract fold you know just because a bit of me wants to

00:22:18.272 --> 00:22:22.292
i can't do anything about it so really if it's not harming anyone then yeah

00:22:22.292 --> 00:22:24.672
so that was that was That was the therapy, yeah.

00:22:24.852 --> 00:22:29.572
I was interested, we mentioned last time we spoke, about death cafes.

00:22:29.812 --> 00:22:35.152
Could you sort of tell us a little bit about how do they work?

00:22:35.672 --> 00:22:38.832
I noticed I did actually do a little bit of research on it.

00:22:39.012 --> 00:22:47.892
And my idea of what I get as it happens is that I feel like you do or I like

00:22:47.892 --> 00:22:50.592
to talk about death or want to fight with that area.

00:22:50.592 --> 00:22:56.092
And I just sort of advertised that we're going to have a chat and it's going

00:22:56.092 --> 00:23:00.572
to give all my place, I give them my address, put on a cup of coffee or a biscuit or whatever they do.

00:23:00.812 --> 00:23:04.992
And they just chat about what we've been talking about now. Is that the way

00:23:04.992 --> 00:23:07.212
it works? I mean, you're pretty much spot on.

00:23:07.492 --> 00:23:13.352
I think it was started by a Dutch guy back in the late eight, maybe nineties.

00:23:13.552 --> 00:23:19.072
And he had a terminal disease and I think he decided, I think he found conversations

00:23:19.072 --> 00:23:19.992
with his family awkward.

00:23:19.992 --> 00:23:22.792
You know that kind of man the actual idea well one who goes somewhere else

00:23:22.792 --> 00:23:25.552
and sit around i mean correct me for i might i

00:23:25.552 --> 00:23:28.672
might not have that completely correct but it certainly started in

00:23:28.672 --> 00:23:31.712
holland and now it's global and essentially yeah it's

00:23:31.712 --> 00:23:35.352
a community of people no one runs it i think i'm not even sure if there are

00:23:35.352 --> 00:23:40.392
full-time employees i think it's his his family that run on death cafe the concept

00:23:40.392 --> 00:23:45.312
now but yeah absolutely you you you basically post up where you where you wanted

00:23:45.312 --> 00:23:48.832
to host it you know in my personal ones there was there's a local irish bar down here.

00:23:49.432 --> 00:23:53.012
I know the landlord, I probably shouldn't say that I know the landlord well,

00:23:53.092 --> 00:23:54.072
but I do know him quite well.

00:23:54.152 --> 00:23:57.752
And so, you know, he can facilitate that or you go to a cafe or wherever.

00:23:57.912 --> 00:23:59.372
And yeah, you absolutely post it up yourself.

00:23:59.933 --> 00:24:04.693
Okay. So it doesn't become bricks and mortar, does it?

00:24:04.813 --> 00:24:11.233
I mean, I can't just sort of go down the street to my normal cafe and sit down

00:24:11.233 --> 00:24:13.833
and have a cup of coffee. They're not there next week, are they?

00:24:14.093 --> 00:24:18.573
Unless they're going to hold this meeting somewhere and advertise it.

00:24:18.573 --> 00:24:21.413
Have people would have regular meetings i mean it's up to you so it's

00:24:21.413 --> 00:24:24.153
whoever's the organizer you do get a fact sheet about what you're meant

00:24:24.153 --> 00:24:26.953
to do and the main takeaway is it's not it's not obviously a

00:24:26.953 --> 00:24:29.693
counseling session you know if someone's lost someone they wouldn't

00:24:29.693 --> 00:24:32.593
go to deaf cafe to to explain their grief at losing

00:24:32.593 --> 00:24:35.673
a loved one they're not no one's qualified to be

00:24:35.673 --> 00:24:38.913
able to talk about you know what one should do you can obviously give

00:24:38.913 --> 00:24:41.673
advice so it's just more about yeah to talk about the concept of

00:24:41.673 --> 00:24:44.713
deaf and existence i would set one up i'd say right

00:24:44.713 --> 00:24:47.353
next in a fortnight it'd be at

00:24:47.353 --> 00:24:51.853
7 30 on a wednesday please come down if you feel open about talking about these

00:24:51.853 --> 00:24:55.433
subjects which you know and you you know you marked it slightly by saying you

00:24:55.433 --> 00:24:59.453
know maybe we'll all be a lot better you know mentally healthily you know if

00:24:59.453 --> 00:25:02.993
these subjects were more talked about and the few that i've done you know i

00:25:02.993 --> 00:25:05.073
genuinely was blown away right because,

00:25:05.533 --> 00:25:08.953
i didn't invite you don't invite anyone you know you just put it on the on the

00:25:08.953 --> 00:25:12.633
website so it automatically loads up it's got your location it's got your time

00:25:12.633 --> 00:25:16.433
so anyone can go and if you went in now, you could search it for places near

00:25:16.433 --> 00:25:20.133
you and I guarantee there would be a Deaf Cafe coming up near where you live.

00:25:20.513 --> 00:25:25.133
So this is on a near website, on the- Yeah, yeah, it's a Deaf Cafe.

00:25:25.753 --> 00:25:26.153
It's completely online.

00:25:26.973 --> 00:25:30.313
I'm sorry? Yeah. So it's completely online, yeah, exactly.

00:25:30.533 --> 00:25:34.773
If you wanted to go to one, you'd just go into it and search nearby you using

00:25:34.773 --> 00:25:36.273
your location and see what's coming up.

00:25:36.473 --> 00:25:40.453
Right. If you want to post one, you'd put all your details in and say when it's going to be and.

00:25:41.299 --> 00:25:44.359
Um and then so i did it however long

00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:47.159
ago and seven people turned up i

00:25:47.159 --> 00:25:50.599
didn't know what to expect none of them i i had

00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.019
met in any way they'd all just literally that you

00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:57.319
know a couple days before searched on deaf cafe and none

00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:00.239
of them came from to london i'm sure you got you know it's a

00:26:00.239 --> 00:26:03.379
big old place you know it's many miles 14 miles

00:26:03.379 --> 00:26:06.259
across they come from like the opposite side of london just to

00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:09.099
come up to this east finch bar to talk about

00:26:09.099 --> 00:26:11.879
and i was blown i was just like that was amazing and

00:26:11.879 --> 00:26:15.499
it was a lovely but more than anything funny evening

00:26:15.499 --> 00:26:18.159
it went on for about two hours and it was

00:26:18.159 --> 00:26:20.959
like some people coming up with some ridiculous you know like there's one guy

00:26:20.959 --> 00:26:23.659
his family were very religious but he's saying the

00:26:23.659 --> 00:26:26.679
ridiculousness of the idea of heaven is that you know what age

00:26:26.679 --> 00:26:30.039
are you when you're in heaven do you revert to like your best

00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.279
age 20 year old self or do you go at the time yeah you

00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.159
know like do you then never you know and so stuff like that and actually it

00:26:36.159 --> 00:26:38.959
is yeah it was it was really entertaining i found

00:26:38.959 --> 00:26:41.919
it funny really did you see

00:26:41.919 --> 00:26:44.659
these people again did they did you hold another or they held

00:26:44.659 --> 00:26:48.739
on that you went to and me no not at all it's just a one-off thing they come

00:26:48.739 --> 00:26:53.319
in and they say i've got this thing that uh i'm never gonna die or i don't want

00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:57.419
to die yeah exactly i'm gonna die they'll look at you like you're insane and

00:26:57.419 --> 00:27:01.939
then you'd explain it yeah no exactly what it is yeah and it's some people are.

00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:05.659
Completely okay with it you know they're like you know what you know when it

00:27:05.659 --> 00:27:10.139
when it comes my time i'll be happy some people are you know they'll met there's

00:27:10.139 --> 00:27:13.499
a 23 year old the first time i went with her partner and her partner was quite

00:27:13.499 --> 00:27:17.039
somber was like yeah i mean it's obviously a difficult subject to talk about

00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:21.099
and she was like oh i don't care i could go at 30 it wouldn't bother me.

00:27:22.399 --> 00:27:25.119
Okay and i'll be like then we were laughing saying well i'll be the one holding

00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.259
on like you know age 88 or whatever i know give me more medicine you know so,

00:27:30.433 --> 00:27:33.553
But again, it's that thing, isn't it? It's the same as on my podcast.

00:27:33.713 --> 00:27:37.813
You know, you're talking just to everyday people about something that you don't

00:27:37.813 --> 00:27:41.713
really talk to people about and people will find it difficult to talk to their children about it.

00:27:42.013 --> 00:27:44.373
You know, they might ask like, oh, what happens when I die?

00:27:44.913 --> 00:27:47.893
And oh, don't worry about that. It's never going to happen to you.

00:27:48.033 --> 00:27:50.593
Or they might say, oh, well, you're going to go to heaven. You know what I mean?

00:27:50.653 --> 00:27:55.613
It's almost just subterfuge to get over what could be potentially a difficult

00:27:55.613 --> 00:27:57.333
conversation. It's unbelievable.

00:27:59.033 --> 00:28:02.213
That's that's that's that's the deaf cafes i mean honestly if you or anyone

00:28:02.213 --> 00:28:06.213
if it's anyone listening you know i guarantee if you go and just search up deaf

00:28:06.213 --> 00:28:08.833
cafe on google or bing or whatever i will,

00:28:09.513 --> 00:28:14.553
look put in your address and i almost go where are you paul well i mean in australia

00:28:14.553 --> 00:28:17.913
in melbourne melbourne right yeah yeah i mean melbourne's a massive place isn't

00:28:17.913 --> 00:28:21.613
it so there will be loads of deaf cafe activities i did find a couple there

00:28:21.613 --> 00:28:28.613
on the other side of the city but But it might be interesting to go to one of these things.

00:28:28.873 --> 00:28:33.873
It doesn't matter if I don't believe, or does it, like I don't have to be one of the people.

00:28:34.533 --> 00:28:37.593
No. Well, there's nothing to believe, is it? Because it's literally,

00:28:38.013 --> 00:28:41.053
I mean, this is what I mean about more philosophical views.

00:28:41.153 --> 00:28:43.553
Because obviously, you know, philosophy is obviously gaining knowledge about

00:28:43.553 --> 00:28:44.693
subjects, but it's also...

00:28:45.395 --> 00:28:49.135
You know, exploring subject matter. And I think that's the key, isn't it?

00:28:49.255 --> 00:28:53.795
You know, none of us know in that no one, as far as I know, has ever died and then come back.

00:28:53.955 --> 00:28:56.135
I mean, I'm not going to get into the religious side, but you know,

00:28:56.395 --> 00:29:00.575
there's not a very obvious answer there, in my lifetime.

00:29:02.075 --> 00:29:06.235
So if you take that as a given, then, you know, then no one's got the answer. Yeah.

00:29:06.995 --> 00:29:10.575
It's very interesting. I was just looking at the clock here, actually, we're nearly

00:29:10.575 --> 00:29:13.895
ready to say goodbye but that's been

00:29:13.895 --> 00:29:16.835
actually fantastic I've got to go through this

00:29:16.835 --> 00:29:22.575
again just to say did I really hear this because it's the first time that I've

00:29:22.575 --> 00:29:29.935
ever heard of it and I've had people who said they work at a funeral parlour

00:29:29.935 --> 00:29:33.715
and the things that they had to do and everything like that but you know that

00:29:33.715 --> 00:29:35.795
I thought was normal but hey,

00:29:36.655 --> 00:29:39.935
hey it's normal wasn't it Exactly.

00:29:40.655 --> 00:29:43.935
Thank you, Phil. Thank you very much for giving us your time.

00:29:44.215 --> 00:29:49.395
And I'll let you know when we get this to air so that you can correct me if

00:29:49.395 --> 00:29:50.355
I've done something wrong.

00:29:50.815 --> 00:29:54.655
No, I'm sure it would be perfect. And it's been good to talk to you.

00:29:54.955 --> 00:30:01.155
Actually, if you do find any answers to this problem, let me know.

00:30:01.495 --> 00:30:05.415
I'll let you know. You'll be the first one I call. I'm sure.

00:30:07.735 --> 00:30:13.455
Thanks very much, Phil. Well, good to talk to you. And I hope we catch up again.

00:30:13.895 --> 00:30:15.595
Yeah, but let's hope so. Okay.

00:30:16.095 --> 00:30:18.395
Thanks very much. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

00:30:20.405 --> 00:30:23.225
To our loyal listeners, thank you very much for being with us.

00:30:23.925 --> 00:30:26.905
I hope you've enjoyed our podcast today.

00:30:27.085 --> 00:30:31.845
And if you would like to know any more about the World Death Cafe movement,

00:30:32.325 --> 00:30:36.625
you can check out their website on deathcafe.com.

00:30:37.165 --> 00:30:41.045
Thank you for listening to us and have a great day. Bye.

00:30:42.665 --> 00:30:47.485
Thank you for listening to Why Is It So? Make sure you tune in to our next episode.

00:30:47.485 --> 00:30:50.925
Remember, it's your last defense for common sense.