Undercover Drug Bust Gone Wrong

WEBVTT

00:00:02.257 --> 00:00:06.557
Welcome to Why Is It So? Your last defence for common sense,

00:00:06.777 --> 00:00:10.277
with your co-hosts Paul Zammett and Vince Locizzano.

00:00:13.037 --> 00:00:22.457
Welcome to Why Is It So? I'm Paul, and my co-host Vince is still recuperating, so today I'm solo again.

00:00:23.277 --> 00:00:28.017
About three months ago, I presented an episode which our listeners would be

00:00:28.017 --> 00:00:32.057
familiar with about a man named Gary Pacelli.

00:00:32.497 --> 00:00:37.417
He was the man who was skydiving when his chute didn't open properly and he

00:00:37.417 --> 00:00:41.437
became a paraplegic with no feeling from the neck down.

00:00:42.037 --> 00:00:45.537
Fortunately, he didn't break his spine or his neck. However,

00:00:45.797 --> 00:00:49.157
it took him around five months of surgeries and attention to recover.

00:00:49.437 --> 00:00:53.917
This was not his first time with a near-death occasion.

00:00:54.217 --> 00:00:58.437
Earlier in his career when he was a county police detective in the state of

00:00:58.437 --> 00:01:02.677
New York he almost died while he was arresting a drug dealer.

00:01:03.377 --> 00:01:08.237
Today he joins with me to tell us what happened and how he survived.

00:01:08.837 --> 00:01:15.297
Well Gary thank you for giving us your time again. So what did cause you to so much pain?

00:01:16.217 --> 00:01:21.817
Following a suspect around. We had an informant that told us that this guy had

00:01:21.817 --> 00:01:23.217
come up from Virginia and,

00:01:23.706 --> 00:01:28.726
to you know buy a load of cocaine yeah so you know we knew the hotel he was

00:01:28.726 --> 00:01:33.946
in we knew you know we knew his name everything and we also knew that he paid

00:01:33.946 --> 00:01:40.066
cash for the hotel and so this was a friday this is the second day of our surveillance

00:01:40.066 --> 00:01:43.506
but we knew that he had the hotel till monday,

00:01:44.126 --> 00:01:47.046
so you know because of like our experience like you

00:01:47.046 --> 00:01:49.886
know we knew that he was he wasn't going

00:01:49.886 --> 00:01:53.446
to be picking up a load of coke friday and then

00:01:53.446 --> 00:01:58.206
sit on it all weekend yeah and then drive to on monday because he'd get robbed

00:01:58.206 --> 00:02:02.526
you know something would happen you know and he was with his girlfriend so so

00:02:02.526 --> 00:02:05.646
we knew that he was going to do it on monday so we were kind of relaxed on our

00:02:05.646 --> 00:02:10.306
surveillance you know we were just lightly you know doing it but what happened was.

00:02:11.506 --> 00:02:14.346
Our supervisor who was not on scene he was about

00:02:14.346 --> 00:02:18.026
40 miles away sitting in a high-rise building right and

00:02:18.026 --> 00:02:21.066
he was one of those guys that never came out with

00:02:21.066 --> 00:02:24.006
us you know yeah but he would listen to us on the radio

00:02:24.006 --> 00:02:26.946
and he would want to be relevant

00:02:26.946 --> 00:02:29.886
right so he would want to get his voice on the radio so

00:02:29.886 --> 00:02:33.346
maybe one of the big bosses were hearing him you know so he

00:02:33.346 --> 00:02:36.246
was listening to the radio and he called up

00:02:36.246 --> 00:02:39.086
my sergeant and told him that he wanted the

00:02:39.086 --> 00:02:42.946
suspect pulled over and identified okay

00:02:42.946 --> 00:02:45.926
now that's normally not a big deal

00:02:45.926 --> 00:02:48.666
right yeah because what what happens at that

00:02:48.666 --> 00:02:51.606
point is the sergeant calls the the town whatever town

00:02:51.606 --> 00:02:56.266
we're working in at this time it was fort lee new jersey which is the last town

00:02:56.266 --> 00:03:02.466
before the george washington bridge going into new york city so the sergeant

00:03:02.466 --> 00:03:06.306
called the fort lee police department they're very busy police department because

00:03:06.306 --> 00:03:11.146
they're everything coming into the city going out of the city you know and he asked them is.

00:03:11.805 --> 00:03:16.625
They could have a patrol unit, pull this guy over, and just ID him, you know.

00:03:16.805 --> 00:03:20.565
But the thing was, we already knew who he was. We didn't need to ID him. We knew who he was.

00:03:20.865 --> 00:03:25.125
But that's what they wanted. So we called the Foyling Police Department,

00:03:25.225 --> 00:03:27.765
and they said they couldn't do it. They were too busy, right?

00:03:28.285 --> 00:03:35.385
So now Sergeant calls up us on the radio and says, hey, whoever is behind the

00:03:35.385 --> 00:03:41.305
target, if he makes the, if he crosses the bridge, makes the U-turn towards his hotel,

00:03:41.805 --> 00:03:44.605
pull him over and identify him.

00:03:45.045 --> 00:03:48.885
So, you know, that's crazy. That's crazy. We're on the cover.

00:03:49.765 --> 00:03:55.245
We're not dressed for that. Okay. And, you know, there's a lot of reasons why we don't do that.

00:03:55.565 --> 00:04:01.165
You know, number one, we're not dressed for it. I was wearing shorts and a sleeveless t-shirt.

00:04:01.545 --> 00:04:06.065
Right. And, you know, you can, you can book the target, you know,

00:04:06.085 --> 00:04:13.025
anybody with any, any brain is going to say, Hey, why is this undercover detective pulling me over?

00:04:13.185 --> 00:04:15.625
Right. Like it doesn't make sense. It's just a tech story.

00:04:16.285 --> 00:04:20.205
And yeah, like, you know, but I, I, I would come up with some, you know, story.

00:04:20.345 --> 00:04:24.305
Like I would say to him, we have a report of a stolen car, you know.

00:04:24.565 --> 00:04:26.225
Imagine the description of this car.

00:04:26.385 --> 00:04:29.505
I can see clearly that, you know, this car is not stolen,

00:04:29.505 --> 00:04:32.425
but can i just see your driver's license and on you know something like

00:04:32.425 --> 00:04:35.285
that you know but a good drug dealer is

00:04:35.285 --> 00:04:38.225
going to be like you know what let's start down i take the chance they're going

00:04:38.225 --> 00:04:41.205
to they'll make another arrangements to pick it up another time

00:04:41.205 --> 00:04:43.965
in another place right so that's why you don't do that and the

00:04:43.965 --> 00:04:47.365
other reason is you can really these guys panic right

00:04:47.365 --> 00:04:50.225
they'll take a look at me and say oh man they

00:04:50.225 --> 00:04:53.185
know everything you know it's over with yeah and

00:04:53.185 --> 00:04:56.025
then he panics you know and so you know

00:04:56.025 --> 00:04:59.025
i call my sergeant and i and i say you know

00:04:59.025 --> 00:05:01.905
he's a friend of mine so i can talk to him you know and i said

00:05:01.905 --> 00:05:04.925
what are we doing like why are we doing this like it doesn't make any sense you

00:05:04.925 --> 00:05:08.065
know and then he explained to me that the the supervisor

00:05:08.065 --> 00:05:11.285
in norc wants it done so we don't have a choice okay

00:05:11.285 --> 00:05:14.085
now we're we're in new york city at the time we're in

00:05:14.085 --> 00:05:17.245
washington heights which at the time was a major

00:05:17.245 --> 00:05:20.545
money laundering section in new

00:05:20.545 --> 00:05:23.345
york city right yeah it was so bad though like

00:05:23.345 --> 00:05:26.545
uh you could actually sit on a you know

00:05:26.545 --> 00:05:29.485
on a street you know in an undercover car and

00:05:29.485 --> 00:05:32.665
you could watch like any like bodega that does western union

00:05:32.665 --> 00:05:36.985
transfers oh yeah morning transfers and you could just watch and and you know

00:05:36.985 --> 00:05:40.605
give it if you give it enough time like a couple days to a week you'll see somebody

00:05:40.605 --> 00:05:45.125
walking down the street you know with a suitcase on wheels you know just walking

00:05:45.125 --> 00:05:50.045
he'll walk in and he'll walk out and you know you'll you'll walk up to him and

00:05:50.045 --> 00:05:51.365
ask him what's in the bag you know,

00:05:51.425 --> 00:05:55.205
tell him who you are and he'll say, it's not my bag.

00:05:56.185 --> 00:05:59.425
And you're like oh, it's not your bag, you know, and it must be my bag then,

00:05:59.465 --> 00:06:03.065
you know, and then you open it up and it's full of money, and then they start

00:06:03.065 --> 00:06:04.825
to panic, right, they're like, well, you know,

00:06:05.432 --> 00:06:08.692
But they don't want to tell you it's their bag, right? But eventually they do

00:06:08.692 --> 00:06:10.932
because they need a receipt for the bag.

00:06:11.032 --> 00:06:15.832
All right. Because if they lose that bag and we're out of receipt from us, they're in big trouble.

00:06:16.312 --> 00:06:21.452
They got to cover what's up with that bag, you know? Yeah. So it could be 300 grand, you know?

00:06:21.592 --> 00:06:23.512
And now all of a sudden they don't have a receipt, you know?

00:06:23.732 --> 00:06:24.952
It's dangerous for them.

00:06:25.292 --> 00:06:28.612
So eventually they'll, you know, they come with us, we give them a receipt,

00:06:28.852 --> 00:06:31.192
and they usually end up working with us, you know?

00:06:31.412 --> 00:06:36.232
And that's how we do our cases, right? Yeah, yeah. But it's really bad,

00:06:36.392 --> 00:06:39.232
you know, but at this time, this guy was just up to pick up a load of coke.

00:06:39.492 --> 00:06:41.992
And so he starts moving.

00:06:42.932 --> 00:06:46.892
And, you know, we have, again, 10 cars. And we don't know what we're doing because

00:06:46.892 --> 00:06:48.592
this is what we do all day long, you know.

00:06:48.812 --> 00:06:53.052
And we go to cross the George Washington Bridge, which is a matter.

00:06:53.192 --> 00:06:54.532
I don't know if you've ever been in New York City.

00:06:54.772 --> 00:06:57.672
No, I haven't, unfortunately. I've been on the weather that well.

00:06:59.372 --> 00:07:02.892
It's, you know, it's crazy, you know. So especially when the George Washington

00:07:02.892 --> 00:07:06.172
Bridge has all these streets that funnel into the bridge.

00:07:06.692 --> 00:07:11.092
So traffic is always crazy. And now there was construction on a bridge,

00:07:11.092 --> 00:07:12.672
which makes it so much worse.

00:07:13.072 --> 00:07:16.852
So as we were coming across the bridge, everybody got separated.

00:07:17.532 --> 00:07:24.512
You know, I was the only one on the target, right? And we call that having the eye.

00:07:24.892 --> 00:07:29.632
You know, whoever can see me personally, he has, you know, the eye.

00:07:29.632 --> 00:07:35.632
So that's what we call all right i got the eye you know so i'm following and

00:07:35.632 --> 00:07:41.252
of course he makes that u-turn right before his hotel right so you know i turn

00:07:41.252 --> 00:07:45.052
my lights on and even though i have an undercover car it still has lights in

00:07:45.052 --> 00:07:48.012
there you know you can't see them until you turn them on.

00:07:48.972 --> 00:07:53.592
So i turn my lights on and i get a little quick trip on my siren and as he makes

00:07:53.592 --> 00:07:58.092
the u-turn and he's pulling back onto the highway he pulls right over onto the

00:07:58.092 --> 00:08:03.692
shoulder so i take my badge out come underneath my t-shirt you know and that's

00:08:03.692 --> 00:08:06.252
all i got you know because i'm i'm dressed again with,

00:08:06.892 --> 00:08:11.632
slingless t-shirt shorts yeah you know i'm lucky i had i had sneakers on that

00:08:11.632 --> 00:08:16.692
day a lot of times i wear sandals you know we're supposed to blend in you know

00:08:16.692 --> 00:08:21.752
if we have to get out of the car and follow somebody and this is july you know

00:08:21.752 --> 00:08:23.832
you gotta you gotta kind of fit in so Go.

00:08:24.643 --> 00:08:27.363
So i i walk up the car and i asked ask him for

00:08:27.363 --> 00:08:30.343
his driver's license and you know here's where

00:08:30.343 --> 00:08:33.003
i make the mistake now he goes to hand me

00:08:33.003 --> 00:08:37.563
his driver's license but he does it with his right hand right so he reaches

00:08:37.563 --> 00:08:43.523
and as i go to grab it he pulls it in right and i make the mistake of reaching

00:08:43.523 --> 00:08:47.823
into the car it's a big mistake you know that's that's a rookie mistake right

00:08:47.823 --> 00:08:52.463
there you get And I reach into the car and as I do,

00:08:52.523 --> 00:08:57.903
I look and I notice that his foot's on the brake and I see the car still in drive.

00:08:58.223 --> 00:09:05.203
And then we lock eyes and he hooks my arm with his left arm and he punches the gas.

00:09:05.583 --> 00:09:10.223
So now he's starting to go out into the highway and I'm running to keep up.

00:09:10.503 --> 00:09:15.083
Right. But I know that I can't keep up. I mean, that's why. Now,

00:09:15.183 --> 00:09:20.503
if I ripped my arm out, I probably could rip my arm out from the floor.

00:09:20.803 --> 00:09:22.723
And then it went over by his back tire.

00:09:23.363 --> 00:09:28.223
So, you know, at the times, it made sense to me. I dove into the car, right?

00:09:28.583 --> 00:09:33.563
So now here I am. I'm in the car kind of on his lap, you know, looking at him really.

00:09:34.003 --> 00:09:37.983
Your feet are out of the window at this stage. Yeah, my legs are hanging out the window.

00:09:39.583 --> 00:09:43.703
Right? So I'm kind of like, you know, half in, half out, right?

00:09:43.703 --> 00:09:47.143
And uh and i and i look and i i see

00:09:47.143 --> 00:09:49.823
that he's already in the middle lane and he's going

00:09:49.823 --> 00:09:52.743
for the fast lane and i i just know that he's

00:09:52.743 --> 00:09:55.883
gonna he's gonna crush me on that divider you know oh

00:09:55.883 --> 00:10:02.283
i'm just gonna like push me just throw me off the car so you know you call it

00:10:02.283 --> 00:10:07.243
you know whatever you want to call it your training you know from the universe

00:10:07.243 --> 00:10:13.163
god you know i hear in my head you You know, it's like a roar, you know,

00:10:13.663 --> 00:10:16.203
shoot him, shoot him now, bang!

00:10:16.423 --> 00:10:19.543
That's all I hear, right? Yeah. And next thing I know, I'm tunneling down the

00:10:19.543 --> 00:10:23.023
fast lane of the highway, you know, and I'm just going, going, and going, and going.

00:10:23.662 --> 00:10:26.902
You know and like when things like this happens there's got

00:10:26.902 --> 00:10:30.702
to be a name for it i don't know what it is though but everything flows down

00:10:30.702 --> 00:10:33.542
in your mind right yeah you know i call

00:10:33.542 --> 00:10:36.682
it slow time but i don't i don't know what there's got to be i'm sure it's a

00:10:36.682 --> 00:10:41.622
scientific name because i know i know like wingsuiters they experience it like

00:10:41.622 --> 00:10:47.422
when they're you know so to me like everything slows down right and and i i

00:10:47.422 --> 00:10:51.862
think to myself like am i ever going to stop fumbling you know Because I always,

00:10:51.962 --> 00:10:55.022
you know, I look back on these things down and I say,

00:10:55.222 --> 00:11:00.862
you know, when this happens, you can think so much so fast, right?

00:11:01.442 --> 00:11:05.622
It's really in the fraction of a second, you know? So did you actually fall

00:11:05.622 --> 00:11:07.222
out by this stage? You were on the ground.

00:11:07.722 --> 00:11:10.342
I'm tumbling on the highway. I'm rolling down.

00:11:10.942 --> 00:11:17.302
You start 45 miles an hour. Jesus, yeah. I shot him. You know, because I shot him.

00:11:17.962 --> 00:11:20.842
Oh, you did shoot him. yeah he like

00:11:20.842 --> 00:11:23.922
he yanked on the car and i got tossed out

00:11:23.922 --> 00:11:27.262
you know right so you know i

00:11:27.262 --> 00:11:30.682
don't remember pulling my weapon you know i just

00:11:30.682 --> 00:11:36.282
bang right that's and then i'm tumbling you know right and so i i stopped finally

00:11:36.282 --> 00:11:41.262
stopped tumbling and i'm on i'm on my my hands and knees really right and i

00:11:41.262 --> 00:11:44.482
still have my weapon in my hand you know if that's the one thing they always

00:11:44.482 --> 00:11:49.122
train you right Don't ever Right You know,

00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:52.010
And I got that from the Marine Corps, too, though, right? So,

00:11:52.090 --> 00:11:54.710
yeah, Marine Corps, didn't please get the one. Ever let go of your weapon.

00:11:54.890 --> 00:11:59.030
So, I look up, and there's a tractor trailer coming right down,

00:11:59.110 --> 00:12:02.290
because I'm in a fast lane now. And it's, like, coming at me, you know?

00:12:03.070 --> 00:12:06.690
Again, I go into that, like, slow time. And I think, you know,

00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:08.130
like, man, like, what in the mess?

00:12:08.310 --> 00:12:12.050
Like, is an anvil going to fall out? It's trying to hit me in the head. Like, you know?

00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:17.410
But I didn't even think to move, though, right? Like, this happens so fast, though, you know?

00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:20.850
And I didn't even think to move. and i just yanked

00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:24.110
out of the way the truck goes by and uh a partner

00:12:24.110 --> 00:12:26.950
had shown up okay now he showed up

00:12:26.950 --> 00:12:29.910
just as the car was taking me for the ride out

00:12:29.910 --> 00:12:32.670
to the highway i didn't see him i had no idea he was there

00:12:32.670 --> 00:12:36.170
and so he he heard the shot but

00:12:36.170 --> 00:12:39.150
he didn't know if i fired my weapon

00:12:39.150 --> 00:12:42.070
or if i got shot he had no idea

00:12:42.070 --> 00:12:45.450
so he dragged me to his shoulder and he's like yeah

00:12:45.450 --> 00:12:48.610
you know are you all right you know and uh yeah i

00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:51.410
was mad you know and so i said you know something pretty

00:12:51.410 --> 00:12:54.190
nasty you know and you know go get that you know

00:12:54.190 --> 00:12:57.010
bleep bleep bleep you know add in whatever word you

00:12:57.010 --> 00:12:59.890
want you know yeah and so he jumps in his truck

00:12:59.890 --> 00:13:03.130
and he takes off he goes after the guy and so i

00:13:03.130 --> 00:13:06.450
did i stand up and i'm just furious

00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:09.850
right because i'm thinking to myself how

00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:12.950
how could i have missed this guy the guy

00:13:12.950 --> 00:13:15.970
kept going he just kept going and i i'm

00:13:15.970 --> 00:13:19.050
like i just can't understand like there's

00:13:19.050 --> 00:13:21.990
no way i'm gonna miss that guy you know what i mean like i

00:13:21.990 --> 00:13:25.610
was in a guinsey guy i mean i was i i was the range high shooter i got a big

00:13:25.610 --> 00:13:30.790
giant trophy right how did i miss this guy you know and so i'm really really

00:13:30.790 --> 00:13:35.790
mad right so i'm i i go and walk up to my car which is probably about 40 40

00:13:35.790 --> 00:13:39.070
or 50 yards up the shoulder now. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

00:13:39.450 --> 00:13:43.690
And I'm bleeding, you know, because they've got to have their arms and the road

00:13:43.690 --> 00:13:46.870
rash. And I got a concussion and I'm limping.

00:13:47.599 --> 00:13:50.619
You know so it was hurt but

00:13:50.619 --> 00:13:53.259
there was no like bones sticking out of my body or nothing you know

00:13:53.259 --> 00:13:56.459
what i mean like i was you know just so i i

00:13:56.459 --> 00:13:59.439
linked my way up to my car and i don't realize

00:13:59.439 --> 00:14:02.799
that other members of the group had shown up and they stopped you know they

00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:09.739
they stopped traffic and it's a crime scene now right so but i i'm so focused

00:14:09.739 --> 00:14:14.739
on i got to get to my car because i I got to get on this pursuit because my

00:14:14.739 --> 00:14:17.379
partner is now chasing this guy down and he's by himself.

00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:22.739
So that's all I'm thinking about, right? So I get close to my car.

00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:27.479
You know, I can't, I don't want to swear on your show, but so I get close to

00:14:27.479 --> 00:14:32.879
my car and I say something, you know, I'm going to kill that,

00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:34.539
you know, bleep, bleep, bleep, right?

00:14:35.019 --> 00:14:38.499
And then I realized I looked and like two feet away from me,

00:14:38.599 --> 00:14:40.659
there's a stopped car, right?

00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:43.519
And there's a typical family in the car right a

00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.859
mother father two kids in the back seat and

00:14:46.859 --> 00:14:50.259
my eyes lock lock onto the to to

00:14:50.259 --> 00:14:53.099
you know woman in the front seat arrived me and

00:14:53.099 --> 00:14:55.899
she's terrified right and then

00:14:55.899 --> 00:14:58.699
it hits me like like it hits me like somebody hit me

00:14:58.699 --> 00:15:01.699
over the head with a sledgehammer and she's terrified

00:15:01.699 --> 00:15:04.639
of me right because all she sees is some

00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.579
bald lunatic woken up

00:15:07.579 --> 00:15:10.379
the shoulder bleeding talking to himself with a gun

00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:13.659
in his hand right so you

00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:16.639
know but it snaps me right back to reality you know i quickly

00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:21.259
i holster my weapon you know i get in the car and i take off you know but i'm

00:15:21.259 --> 00:15:26.739
laughing i'm like oh man that's crazy you know so i i just take off try and

00:15:26.739 --> 00:15:32.339
i try to find my partner big lenny his name was right i'm not listening to the

00:15:32.339 --> 00:15:35.919
radio right you know the radio's blaring, there's a lot going on.

00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:39.979
And I don't hear any of it, right? Because I'm so focused.

00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.659
And so I go up a level on a bridge and they had gone lower level.

00:15:45.859 --> 00:15:47.879
Okay. So I didn't even find them, right?

00:15:49.031 --> 00:15:56.051
So like when a shooting happens like this, right. So my partner had called a 1013, right.

00:15:56.331 --> 00:15:59.531
Which is, you know, that's our code.

00:16:00.331 --> 00:16:04.991
Like they're pretty similar, the codes, you know, but they're not exact.

00:16:05.251 --> 00:16:09.931
Right. So that 1013 from my department was, you know, like all hands on deck.

00:16:10.091 --> 00:16:12.891
You know what I mean? Like radio chatter, stop.

00:16:13.171 --> 00:16:18.751
Nobody pokes on a radio unless you're, you know, unless it's relevant, you know.

00:16:18.751 --> 00:16:22.211
To what's going on okay and so

00:16:22.211 --> 00:16:25.291
he called a 1013 with an officer down

00:16:25.291 --> 00:16:28.311
which makes it even more you know so now

00:16:28.311 --> 00:16:31.111
what happens is every everybody gets that you know

00:16:31.111 --> 00:16:34.131
because all the police departments they relay that message

00:16:34.131 --> 00:16:37.311
to all the other police departments so every police department

00:16:37.311 --> 00:16:40.151
in the area any available units they converge on the

00:16:40.151 --> 00:16:43.891
scene you know so one guy

00:16:43.891 --> 00:16:46.951
from fort lee hit a telephone pole trying to get trying to

00:16:46.951 --> 00:16:49.631
get to the scene you know it's crazy you know it's it's a

00:16:49.631 --> 00:16:52.751
crazy thing you know here i am i i went to

00:16:52.751 --> 00:16:55.631
upper level of the bridge so i'm just driving down the highway at

00:16:55.631 --> 00:16:58.891
this point down right up to parkway you know and you know i can't i don't know

00:16:58.891 --> 00:17:04.271
where everybody is you know so but my partner though he chased this guy and

00:17:04.271 --> 00:17:10.931
another unit you know group member had shown up and and was now with him as

00:17:10.931 --> 00:17:13.491
they were chasing and this guy wasn't stopping.

00:17:13.711 --> 00:17:18.471
So they got right before the tolls to get under the bridge, right?

00:17:18.851 --> 00:17:22.191
My partner, he ran them with his car. Pow! Right?

00:17:23.221 --> 00:17:26.861
So now they're outside the car yelling, get out of the car, get out of the car,

00:17:27.001 --> 00:17:27.841
you know, like the whole bit.

00:17:28.181 --> 00:17:32.901
Now, I didn't see this, but this is what they told me, that they couldn't see

00:17:32.901 --> 00:17:37.081
inside the car because all the windows were covered with blood.

00:17:37.341 --> 00:17:39.401
Driver's side window and the front window.

00:17:40.421 --> 00:17:47.381
So what happens is the driver, the door opens and then closes and then opens

00:17:47.381 --> 00:17:48.841
a little bit and then closes.

00:17:49.021 --> 00:17:52.541
They have no idea what's going on, right? like is

00:17:52.541 --> 00:17:55.361
this guy getting ready to come out shooting like they have no idea

00:17:55.361 --> 00:17:58.301
so they're like this close to start shooting

00:17:58.301 --> 00:18:01.381
into the car but what happens is the door opens

00:18:01.381 --> 00:18:04.401
and the driver slumps out what have

00:18:04.401 --> 00:18:07.341
happened was he had lost so much blood that he couldn't

00:18:07.341 --> 00:18:12.801
undo his seatbelt right so so he slumps out and they they go to work on him

00:18:12.801 --> 00:18:16.221
now like because they're trying to stop the bleeding you know because it's it's

00:18:16.221 --> 00:18:21.381
two o'clock on a friday afternoon in july and all the traffic now he's going

00:18:21.381 --> 00:18:26.521
into the city like you know so all eyes are on these guys now right so but they.

00:18:26.701 --> 00:18:29.721
Stopped the bleeding and everything because what happened was

00:18:29.721 --> 00:18:32.861
when this guy was really big really big

00:18:32.861 --> 00:18:38.481
guy you know so when i fired my weapon it hit him like in the chest on an angle

00:18:38.481 --> 00:18:43.381
all right so i went through the into the media port and it lodged in his elbow

00:18:43.381 --> 00:18:50.241
with a 40 a 40 caliber it was a glock i don't i don't remember the number the the model number

00:18:50.381 --> 00:18:53.141
but so and me i i was like

00:18:53.141 --> 00:18:56.141
thinking i missed him you know but you know i didn't so i

00:18:56.141 --> 00:18:59.081
get a call on on my radio i'm sorry

00:18:59.081 --> 00:19:02.241
with my phone is that you know i didn't even hear the radio my phone

00:19:02.241 --> 00:19:04.981
rings i pick up as my chief now we had a

00:19:04.981 --> 00:19:07.721
really my chief was excellent he was a

00:19:07.721 --> 00:19:10.601
he was a working chief you know he couldn't stand

00:19:10.601 --> 00:19:13.781
sitting in the office so he was always out somewhere

00:19:13.781 --> 00:19:16.721
around where we were working you know he was always close

00:19:16.721 --> 00:19:19.841
by so he and he was a retired lieutenant

00:19:19.841 --> 00:19:22.641
from new york city okay so then came

00:19:22.641 --> 00:19:25.661
over to my department close to bridge in jersey where i

00:19:25.661 --> 00:19:28.981
worked at the time and you know they made him a chief of narcotics

00:19:28.981 --> 00:19:35.681
so he's like okay listen uh you okay i'm like uh yeah he's like okay i need

00:19:35.681 --> 00:19:39.881
you to come back to the scene right i'm like okay no problem you know he's like

00:19:39.881 --> 00:19:43.541
where are you i'm at i have no idea i want henning huxley parkway somewhere

00:19:43.541 --> 00:19:46.621
he worked He's a guy, I run around, come back.

00:19:46.821 --> 00:19:49.021
So I finally get back to the scene and, uh,

00:19:49.481 --> 00:19:53.061
You know, first thing I do is I hand them my weapon because I know I'm out of

00:19:53.061 --> 00:19:54.981
the game. You know, they're going to take my weapon.

00:19:55.601 --> 00:19:58.261
You know, everything changes for me at this moment, you know,

00:19:58.701 --> 00:20:03.941
because you can either be a hero or go to jail for 20 years at this point.

00:20:04.221 --> 00:20:08.781
You know what I mean? It all depends, you know, and it's got nothing to do with

00:20:08.781 --> 00:20:10.081
whether you were right or wrong.

00:20:10.581 --> 00:20:15.981
It all depends on how it all plays out. What it looks like. Yeah. Exactly.

00:20:17.461 --> 00:20:21.521
It sounds like this is more of a keystone cops than it actually happened.

00:20:22.421 --> 00:20:28.401
No, yeah. No, it's, you know, because at that moment, as soon as you get into

00:20:28.401 --> 00:20:31.021
a shooting like that, you can't trust anybody.

00:20:32.201 --> 00:20:35.661
Anyone, you know, except like your partner and those guys, you know,

00:20:35.721 --> 00:20:39.401
but everybody's out to get you in your mind anyway, you know,

00:20:39.521 --> 00:20:41.501
but you have to be careful like that, you know.

00:20:41.901 --> 00:20:48.161
So my chief orders me and Big Lane to the hospital, right? So my sergeant takes us to the hospital.

00:20:48.601 --> 00:20:52.141
You know, I get out of the car and I'm, you know, like I said,

00:20:52.241 --> 00:20:56.101
like I was hurt, but it wasn't nothing where, like I said, a bone was sticking

00:20:56.101 --> 00:20:57.601
out, you know, nothing like that, you know?

00:20:57.961 --> 00:21:02.721
So as I'm walking into the emergency room, I noticed this guy,

00:21:02.841 --> 00:21:05.341
he's got this really nice suit on, you know?

00:21:05.481 --> 00:21:07.741
He's like, really? I mean, it's a nice suit, you know?

00:21:08.101 --> 00:21:11.721
And that's the one thing that stands out, right? So I don't think none of it.

00:21:11.801 --> 00:21:15.541
But as I get closer, he says, are you Gary Pacelli?

00:21:15.981 --> 00:21:20.201
And i'm like yeah who are you you know because now again you're like who's this

00:21:20.201 --> 00:21:25.681
guy now you know yeah and he's like i'm your lawyer he's like give me your phone.

00:21:26.355 --> 00:21:29.575
Okay so what happened when when lenny

00:21:29.575 --> 00:21:32.595
big lenny called that 10 13 my union

00:21:32.595 --> 00:21:35.655
rep automatically called up the lawyer yeah you know

00:21:35.655 --> 00:21:38.415
and said okay look this is where you got you know i need

00:21:38.415 --> 00:21:41.435
to get over there immediately you know and for something

00:21:41.435 --> 00:21:44.415
like that you know these guys they'll they'll get there

00:21:44.415 --> 00:21:47.735
you know because it's important it really is you know and uh so

00:21:47.735 --> 00:21:50.815
he took my phone and he says that you know you don't talk to anybody you

00:21:50.815 --> 00:21:53.435
know all your phone calls go through me you know

00:21:53.435 --> 00:21:57.095
he's like you know where's your wife you know because they

00:21:57.095 --> 00:22:00.255
were going to put her in a helicopter and bring her down to

00:22:00.255 --> 00:22:03.555
to where i was yeah but my wife was home on

00:22:03.555 --> 00:22:06.395
bed rest my my first

00:22:06.395 --> 00:22:09.775
my son was going to be born like any day oh yeah so

00:22:09.775 --> 00:22:12.535
she was on bed rest and uh man this is like the last thing

00:22:12.535 --> 00:22:15.455
she needed at the time you know hey so i i

00:22:15.455 --> 00:22:18.375
tell her later that and he and he calls her up and he says uh

00:22:18.375 --> 00:22:21.615
you know i'm all right and open it and he tells her do

00:22:21.615 --> 00:22:25.155
not answer the phone and don't watch tv you

00:22:25.155 --> 00:22:28.335
know and don't answer the door you know just of course

00:22:28.335 --> 00:22:31.515
my wife does all those things you know

00:22:31.515 --> 00:22:34.515
but who would you know what i mean right yeah she calls that

00:22:34.515 --> 00:22:37.275
to buy she why that's all over the news now you know

00:22:37.275 --> 00:22:40.055
and this is a big deal because the highway i

00:22:40.055 --> 00:22:43.115
was on route four is like one of major

00:22:43.115 --> 00:22:46.055
highways going into the city and and now.

00:22:46.055 --> 00:22:48.755
It's shut down you know and they had it shut

00:22:48.755 --> 00:22:51.635
down for six hours so it's a big deal people

00:22:51.635 --> 00:22:54.515
are mad man you know every half hour

00:22:54.515 --> 00:22:57.535
it's on the news it's just they'll keep playing it and it's they

00:22:57.535 --> 00:23:00.775
don't have the story right you know yeah yeah just the

00:23:00.775 --> 00:23:03.695
stories get wild you know and it just

00:23:03.695 --> 00:23:06.535
keeps building and building and and i remember

00:23:06.535 --> 00:23:09.455
being in in the hospital and me and lenny

00:23:09.455 --> 00:23:12.235
we're in the same room and the first thing that

00:23:12.235 --> 00:23:15.155
happens like eternal affairs comes right oh my

00:23:15.155 --> 00:23:17.955
god here we go right you know so they're

00:23:17.955 --> 00:23:20.695
like no no you know gareth it's not like that you know

00:23:20.695 --> 00:23:23.575
the the sheriff ordered us here

00:23:23.575 --> 00:23:26.395
and we're here to make sure no

00:23:26.395 --> 00:23:29.255
one talks to you so we're maybe standing outside your

00:23:29.255 --> 00:23:31.955
door we're not gonna ask you any questions we're just here to

00:23:31.955 --> 00:23:34.895
make sure nobody talks to you i'm like all right great now i

00:23:34.895 --> 00:23:37.935
knew these guys i i started working you know

00:23:37.935 --> 00:23:40.795
when i started working in the jail these guys were working

00:23:40.795 --> 00:23:43.835
in jail too you know so we kind of all came up ranks together

00:23:43.835 --> 00:23:48.975
so they're decent guys you know but still we don't trust anybody this is just

00:23:48.975 --> 00:23:55.015
really building you know the dea sent a shoot a shoot team member from washington

00:23:55.015 --> 00:23:59.095
i don't know how he got there so quick they must have a private jet or something

00:23:59.095 --> 00:24:03.675
because he was there and i was there you know i couldn't believe how fast he got there.

00:24:03.875 --> 00:24:08.835
So now there's a big argument going on between my chief, my sheriff was there,

00:24:09.422 --> 00:24:13.822
The union reps, the lawyer, they're all arguing with the county,

00:24:14.042 --> 00:24:18.802
you know, it's the county homicide unit, right? They didn't want a statement from me.

00:24:19.262 --> 00:24:22.022
There's no way that I was going to give a statement that early,

00:24:22.362 --> 00:24:24.582
you know? And they knew that, you know?

00:24:25.002 --> 00:24:28.422
You know, but the lawyer wasn't going to allow it, and neither were my bosses, you know?

00:24:28.622 --> 00:24:33.862
But I remember being in the room with Big Lenny, and the nurse comes in. It's a funny, I can say.

00:24:34.342 --> 00:24:39.182
So, Big Lenny, like, he's a giant, man. And, like, Winsnack is so,

00:24:39.562 --> 00:24:43.982
you know, he's a professional bodybuilder at the time, right? He was just a monster.

00:24:44.622 --> 00:24:49.322
Great cop, great smart, really smart. You know, it's one of those guys, you know?

00:24:49.622 --> 00:24:52.762
The nurse comes in, and we're talking like I'm talking to you, right?

00:24:52.782 --> 00:24:56.022
And the nurse comes in, and all of a sudden he changes. And he's like,

00:24:56.602 --> 00:24:59.642
wow, I can't breathe, he says to the nurse, right?

00:24:59.762 --> 00:25:02.422
Now, I'm looking at him, right? And I don't understand, you know?

00:25:02.762 --> 00:25:05.682
And so the nurse is like, oh, okay, you know what? You're really anxious,

00:25:05.902 --> 00:25:06.982
you know? You've been through a lot.

00:25:07.562 --> 00:25:11.242
I'll get you something. And he says to the nurse, he says, yeah,

00:25:11.422 --> 00:25:15.342
and get him something too. You know, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

00:25:15.862 --> 00:25:17.802
And the nurse is like, okay, I'll get you both something.

00:25:18.397 --> 00:25:22.797
So her nurse leaves, and I'm like, what are you doing? I'm not taking nothing. What's wrong with you?

00:25:23.237 --> 00:25:26.137
He's like, listen, Tommy. He said, just like that.

00:25:26.477 --> 00:25:31.097
He goes, listen, Tommy, if you take something, they can't question you.

00:25:31.357 --> 00:25:32.777
You can't give a statement.

00:25:33.257 --> 00:25:35.457
I'm like, oh, okay.

00:25:36.297 --> 00:25:41.217
Yeah. They know that, right? You know? This is the first time I was ever in a shooting, you know?

00:25:41.697 --> 00:25:47.437
Because it's his third time, you know? But so, you know, it's just funny stuff, though, you know?

00:25:47.437 --> 00:25:50.337
And but the the media was building and building

00:25:50.337 --> 00:25:53.217
and building and then what happened was at the time because

00:25:53.217 --> 00:25:56.097
this is a this is a while ago it brings right into

00:25:56.097 --> 00:25:58.997
the newsflash i have the video somewhere in

00:25:58.997 --> 00:26:01.897
my house but this this isn't the video

00:26:01.897 --> 00:26:04.897
that happens though like the next one this is like the pre to

00:26:04.897 --> 00:26:08.017
the recall to that video but

00:26:08.017 --> 00:26:10.757
the video ultimately at the end comes out

00:26:10.757 --> 00:26:13.977
and says uh breaking news kobe bryant

00:26:13.977 --> 00:26:16.877
is just charged with raider right the basketball player

00:26:16.877 --> 00:26:19.857
kobe brian at the time and uh that was

00:26:19.857 --> 00:26:22.977
it they took it right off they never reported on

00:26:22.977 --> 00:26:26.417
his case again it was dropped from the news cycle immediately

00:26:26.417 --> 00:26:29.157
which which kind of like made things a

00:26:29.157 --> 00:26:32.817
lot easier for me yeah yeah absolutely yeah i mean

00:26:32.817 --> 00:26:35.997
i i was i was released from the hospital that night and uh

00:26:35.997 --> 00:26:39.157
you know i was there right but about a

00:26:39.157 --> 00:26:42.117
week later you know i just woke up and i couldn't

00:26:42.117 --> 00:26:45.017
dead dead my body you know

00:26:45.017 --> 00:26:47.757
the adrenaline wore off and my body just

00:26:47.757 --> 00:26:50.777
like twisted up man you know and it was like oh man

00:26:50.777 --> 00:26:53.837
so i ended up having 11 surgeries from

00:26:53.837 --> 00:27:00.497
that you know okay they yeah they put two cages in my lower spine they operated

00:27:00.497 --> 00:27:05.337
on my shoulder six times and then they on the seventh time they replaced it

00:27:05.337 --> 00:27:11.357
they replaced my whole shoulder and had a wrist operation so it I had a couple more in here.

00:27:11.457 --> 00:27:15.937
My deltoid muscles snapped, and then they thought I was affected, so I went back in.

00:27:16.417 --> 00:27:22.137
Yeah, so I had all these surgeries, and what happened was you're getting operated

00:27:22.137 --> 00:27:24.257
on every, like, four to six months.

00:27:24.377 --> 00:27:28.137
You have another surgery and another surgery, and, you know.

00:27:28.917 --> 00:27:31.917
You're taking pain fills because you're always getting operated on,

00:27:31.977 --> 00:27:35.577
you know, and you start to slide.

00:27:35.817 --> 00:27:39.197
You know, your trajectory starts to go down, and

00:27:39.197 --> 00:27:42.097
you know i started to put on a weight you know

00:27:42.097 --> 00:27:44.917
so i was always in pretty really good shape you know

00:27:44.917 --> 00:27:47.817
but you can't do anything right you know you can't work out

00:27:47.817 --> 00:27:50.877
because you're always getting operated on so i i

00:27:50.877 --> 00:27:55.097
even tried going back to work a few times working the police academy and stuff

00:27:55.097 --> 00:27:58.957
like that but i always had to leave to get operated on you know another surgery

00:27:58.957 --> 00:28:05.457
another surgery so it just happens that i ended up putting on almost 100 pounds

00:28:05.457 --> 00:28:08.297
no you know yeah and you're you know,

00:28:08.417 --> 00:28:12.057
this is over like four or five years because you always get operated on every

00:28:12.057 --> 00:28:13.977
four or six months. Boom, boom, boom.

00:28:14.643 --> 00:28:16.883
You know, and I started to wonder at a point, like, wait a second,

00:28:16.983 --> 00:28:18.263
like, are these surgeries necessary?

00:28:18.543 --> 00:28:22.623
Or are they just, like, operate on me because I'm, like, a piggyback to them,

00:28:22.663 --> 00:28:24.043
you know? Yeah. Because you don't know.

00:28:24.883 --> 00:28:28.063
So I remember looking at a picture of me and my family, right?

00:28:28.143 --> 00:28:30.263
It was my niece's high school graduation.

00:28:30.643 --> 00:28:33.763
They put some pictures. I was looking at me and my wife and my kids, a picture.

00:28:34.303 --> 00:28:38.923
And I couldn't recognize myself, right? No matter how long I stare at that picture,

00:28:39.083 --> 00:28:40.863
I can't recognize myself.

00:28:40.863 --> 00:28:47.263
And it you know it felt like somebody just just like you ring a check with a hammer pow,

00:28:47.983 --> 00:28:50.843
man it woke me up though you know like it just it hit

00:28:50.843 --> 00:28:53.923
me man and that was it i went on this mission to

00:28:53.923 --> 00:28:58.123
get to get just to get my life back a little bit you know it took me like two

00:28:58.123 --> 00:29:02.283
and a half years you know three years almost to lose all the weight you know

00:29:02.283 --> 00:29:07.363
i lost 100 pounds i got back in shape i was back in the gym i was just and you

00:29:07.363 --> 00:29:10.543
know then i went of course to the other extreme where I really was in really

00:29:10.543 --> 00:29:12.703
great shape now, you know, but,

00:29:13.163 --> 00:29:18.763
I was missing something though, you know, I was missing that camaraderie, you know,

00:29:19.343 --> 00:29:24.083
you know, your group, your guys, you know, your squad, whatever you want to call it, you know,

00:29:24.823 --> 00:29:27.703
and, you know, there was no going back to the police work, you know,

00:29:27.743 --> 00:29:31.983
at this point, you know, so I had done a sky dive in 1988.

00:29:32.763 --> 00:29:36.363
You know, when I was in the Marine Corps, and I loved it, I just thought it

00:29:36.363 --> 00:29:38.103
was the greatest thing, so,

00:29:38.643 --> 00:29:43.103
there's a place close to my house a skydiving center right and i pulled in one

00:29:43.103 --> 00:29:46.443
day and i was like you know what i want to get my license and they're like all

00:29:46.443 --> 00:29:50.743
right well you know you got to do a tandem skydive and you know tam skydive

00:29:50.743 --> 00:29:54.983
the tandem was when they hooked themselves to you you know and so they explained

00:29:54.983 --> 00:29:58.303
the whole thing to me and i'm like okay so she's like you don't know,

00:29:58.783 --> 00:30:04.843
when when do you want to store i'm like now you know so next thing i know i'm

00:30:04.843 --> 00:30:06.203
hooked up i didn't and it's on my wife.

00:30:06.443 --> 00:30:11.783
And I'm going up on a plane and, you know, and here we go. And he jumps out

00:30:11.783 --> 00:30:14.063
and I'm with him and, you know, we land.

00:30:14.203 --> 00:30:16.723
And I was like, all right, well, you know, I'm ready to go.

00:30:17.963 --> 00:30:23.923
Thank you very much. That was a very interesting one today. We even got a bit of a life out of it.

00:30:24.483 --> 00:30:26.803
Thanks again, Bo. We'll talk to you soon. Nope.

00:30:27.403 --> 00:30:32.023
Good on you. Thank you. Okay, bye. Bye. Thank you to all our listeners,

00:30:32.303 --> 00:30:37.003
not only to our Australian audience, but also to our friends in America who

00:30:37.003 --> 00:30:38.723
enjoyed our last chat with Gary.

00:30:38.983 --> 00:30:44.403
I trust you all enjoyed our podcast and we look forward to chatting to you again soon.

00:30:44.883 --> 00:30:47.003
Thank you again. Have a great day.

00:30:47.623 --> 00:30:52.363
Thank you for listening to Why Is It So? Make sure you tune in to our next episode.

00:30:52.583 --> 00:30:55.823
Remember, it's your last defence for common sense.